House an opportunity of judging whether | but he would find ample contributions to the writer was not some worthless character, undeserving of credit or attention. Mr. Robertson said, that he had always supported the Catholic Relief bill; but, if it was to be coupled with the Disfranchisement bill, it was a question with him how far its supporters on former occasions were bound to advocate it under such circumstances. Mr. Butterworth said, he had not made his observations lightly, nor without consideration. He had not gone upon the evidence of a solitary letter. Being anxious to satisfy himself, he had sent a circular to all parts of Ireland; and the answers were such as he had described. Such being the case, he felt it his duty to communicate his information to the House. He had not, it was true, made his inquiries of members; as they were likely to be under particular obligations to their constituents [hear, hear! and a laugh]. Mr. N. Doherty said, that as the hon. member had made his statement upon the authority of letters without a name, he trusted that he, too, might be allowed to state that he had received letters many letters from men of high rank and professional character in Ireland, men who had heretofore been opponents to this bill, earnestly praying that it might pass into a law. From men, too, who certainly had | not been solicited by him to give their opinions: and he must take leave to say, that opinions thus spontaneously expressed, were, to say the least of them, of as much weight as those elicited by the hon. member's circular. He could not pretend to say what were the precise terms of the hon. member's inquiries; but he trusted the hon. member had asked, whether the Protestants of Ireland were favourable to the Catholic cause, and at the same time, expressed a hope that they were so. Mr. M. Fitzgerald assured the House, that the Protestants of Ireland were not to be intimidated; and it was but a poor compliment paid to them by the hon. member for Dover, in his over zeal for the Protestant religion, to say that their signatures had been obtained by menace. The hon. member had sent his circular, and had detailed to the House the answers returned to him. If any hon. member were to open a shop in this country for the reception of tales of bigotry and hypocrisy and intolerance, there was no doubt it. The hon. member had avoided applying to Irish members for information, because, forsooth, they might be under obligations to their constituents. - Why, he for one was under many obligations to his constituents, and he assured the hon. member, that those constituents were as essentially Protestant as his own could be: and, it was because they were so, that they wished to remove the disabilities under which the Roman Catholics laboured. The Protestants of Ireland were not to be intimidated; neither were they to be cajoled. He hoped the House would reject those calumnious and malicious reports which originated in the worst feelings, and were circulated for the most despicable of purposes. Mr. Peel presented a petition from eleven magistrates and 28,000 inhabitants of Manchester and Salford, against further concessions to the Roman Catholics. Mr. Phillips said, that this petition was not to be taken as expressing the sentiments of the inhabitants of Manchester generally, but of a certain party, who had not dared to call a public meeting. All sorts of contrivances had been used to obtain signatures to it. It had even been exposed in the public streets, and a gentleman was now in the lobby of the House, who had seen boys affix their names to it. Constituted as the magistracy of Manchester was, consisting of persons of one political faith only, he did not expect that they would set an example of superior liberality in principles, opinions, or practice. Some of them, indeed, had been zealous advocates for the establishment of Orange Societies in Lancashire, in order, if possible to introduce into that county the religious animosities that at present disturbed Ireland. Application had been made by the leaders of the Anti-catholic party to Methodistic and Calvinistic ministers, to receive the petition into their chapels; but in the Methodist chapels only, he was happy to say, had signatures been appended. In fact, the document deserved no other epithet than that of a "hole and corner" petition. Since it had been got up, application had been made to the boroughreeve to call a public meeting, to consider of the propriety of petitioning parliament in favour of the Catholicclaims; and after five hours discussion, it was resolved in the affirmative by a majority of at least three to one. He rejoiced that the town of Manchester had set this exam ple of liberality to the rest of the kingdom. He thought that a great change had taken place in the feelings of the mass of the people upon the question of Catholic rights, and he had said, that the inhabitants of Lancashire, formerly hostile, were now indifferent; but, he had little expected that in the course of two days and a quarter, three times as many signatures would have been subscribed to the petition in favour of the claims, as had been procured by all kinds of artifices in the same space against them. Such was the fact, and the petition which his noble friend (lord Stanley) was instructed to lay before the House, contained more than 8,000 names. The petition in the hands of the right hon. Secretary, in fact spoke any thing but the sentiments of the people of Manchester at large. Mr. Secretary Peel said, that it had been his practice to present to the House the various petitions intrusted to him without comment; as none of them had been prepared or subscribed at his instance or suggestion. In justice to the petitioners who had now confided the statement of their sentiments and wishes to him, it was, however, absolutely necessary for him to say a few words. Of course he knew nothing personally; but he was instructed positively to deny the allegations of the hon. member. The petition did not profess to be more than "the petition of the undersigned inhabitants of Manchester and Salford," and it did not arrogate to itself to express any thing more than the opinions of those who had subscribed it. When the hon. gentleman said, that it had been got up by those who had not dared to call a public meeting, he ought to have added the reason why a public meeting against the Catholic claims had not been convened. The promoters of the petition had applied to the boroughreeve for the purpose of having a meeting; and when that gentleman addressed the assembly, which was subsequently called, with a contrary object, he had done the present petitioners the justice of saying, that it was by his advice that a public meeting had not been held: the consequence was, the private meeting at the Bridgewater Arms, in deference to the opinion of the boroughreeve. He had also been informed, that several sheets had been withheld by the petitioners because they were found to -contain the signatures of boys. In order, if possible, to procure the rejection of the petition, or at least to injure it in the opinion of the House and the country, he had been desired to mention, that certain individuals, unfriendly to its objects, in some instances, had succeeded in getting the signatures of boys to the petition. This fact might, if necessary, be established. Whatever objections might be urged to it, the petition undoubtedly spoke the sentiments of 28,000 inhabitants of a town, in importance second only to the metropolis. Sir T. Lethbridge observed, that between two or three thousand signatures had been left in Manchester, which could not be subjoined to the large roll about to be laid upon the table. At the public meeting, it was true that a petition in favour of the claims had been voted, but the fact, he understood, was, that the benches had been so filled by Roman Catholics, that the Protestants could not obtain admittance in order to hold up their hands to the contrary. He was convinced that the strongest possible feeling animated the inhabitants of Manchester generally, against the bill. Mr. B. Wilbraham saw no reason why the other magistrates of Manchester should be stigmatized, because some of the body might have wished for the establishment of Orange lodges in Lancashire. They were all satisfied that concession at that moment would be dangerous. Lord Stanley objected to the signatures of the magistrates, who had put their names to the petition in their magisterial as well as in their private capacity. Those individuals had hitherto not mixed themselves with political questions, and he therefore saw with more pain and regret that they stepped forward on this occasion, to oppose the further progress of a bill which was necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland, and for the safety of the empire. But for the subsequent public meeting, and the resolutions then adopted, the petition presented by the right hon. Secretary would have appeared to be the petition generally of the inhabitants of Manchester and Salford. The noble lord then presented a petition from certain inhabitants of the town of Manchester, convened in public meeting, in favour of the Roman Catholics. Ordered to lie on the table. ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.] The order of the day being read, "That this bill be now read the third time," lightened and the educated, what could be expected from the unlettered and the ignorant, who would naturally look up to them for an example? He was sure that much of the opposition to the emancipation of the Roman Catholics proceeded from an ignorance of the real character of the low classes of the Irish. He had himself at one time shared in that ignorance, and he had gone to Ireland imbued with many prejudices against its inhabitants. Those prejudices he was, however, happy to say, had been completely removed. Although subject to every privation, and labouring under the extremity of wretchedness, there were no people in whom the social affections were more strongly developed than in the Irish. There were none superior, and few equal to them, in all the relations of father, husband, son, and brother. Treat them but kindly, and an abundant harvest of gratitude and good feeling would follow; but it was idle to expect that Irishmen would submit to a continuance of that system of degradation and insult to which they had hitherto been subjected. He would take mentioning a circumstance which had occurred within his own knowledge, and which would tend to illustrate his argument. In the town where he lived, there were from 700 to 800 Irishmen of the lower orders residing. A strong prejudice had, for a long time, prevailed against them; the consequence of which was, a reciprocal hostility upon their part, which vented itself, occasionally, in acts of aggression and outrage, which went so far at last, that the military was obliged to be called in. In this state of things it occurred to some of the inhabitants, that the conduct of these Irishmen must have proceeded from their having no place of public worship; for, while the Protestant inhabitants were peaceably engaged in the performance of their religious duties, the Irish were given up to riot and debauchery. They accordingly subscribed to the erection of a Catholic chapel, procured a clergyman, and their subsequent conduct was the very reverse of what it had been. Their children were educated, and the prejudices which had prevailed against them were gradually done away with. He was sure that similar results would follow from similar conduct in other parts of the kingdom. Of this he was at least certain, that if any of the "No Popery!" chalkers were to en Mr. Curwen rose and said, that although he had sat in that House for many years, he had seldom taken a part in the discussion of the question then before them. He trusted, however, that upon the present occasion, he might be permitted to obtrude himself upon their attention for a very few moments. It had been the policy of those who were opposed to the measure of Catholic concession, to represent the great body of the people of England as hostile to that measure. For his own part, as far as his experience went, he could confidently assert that such a representation was erroneous. He had the honour to represent a large county, and so far from the existence of any hostile feeling amongst his constituents, he could say, that a great and decided majority of them were favourable to the Roman Catholics a feeling in which he himself most heartily concurred. He would go further and say, that there were none more attached to Protestantism than the inhabi- tants of the north of England, and he was certain that if by the passing of this measure they anticipated any danger to the established blished religion, they would be the the liberty of last to support it. But they foresaw that by granting emancipation, they were affording the most effectual security to the Protestant religion. Was it nothing he would ask, to conciliate six millions of people, and convert them from enemies into friends? He had always been accustomed to consider the restrictions upon the Roman Catholics as resulting from political and not religious motives. They were entered into originally for the protection of a prince, who was called to the throne of these realms by the voice of the people, and to prevent the return of another prince who had been excluded from that throne. But the political reasons which existed for those restrictions had long since ceased, and if, at the period of their enactment, they had not been looked upon as a security for the Protestant religion, still less were they called for at the present moment. There never, he contended, was a period, when alarm ought less to prevail than at the present moment, for there never was a period when the church was in higher favour, or when its ministers discharged their duty in a more exemplary manner. It was, therefore, with considerable pain that he saw the members of that respectable and venerable body coming forward with petitions against the Catholics. If such was the conduct of the endeavour to excite a prejudice in the town to which he had alluded, they would be hooted out of it with a universal cry of indignation. He should not trespass further upon their attention than merely to say, that if we refused to conciliate the Catholics in time of peace, it was hardly to be expected that they would be satisfied with the same measure of concession in time of war [hear, hear!]. He, for one, would not blame them if they were not. The hon. gentleman concluded byexpressing his cordial approbation of the measure. Sir R. H. Inglis rose and said : Sir; a large part of the debate which has taken place hitherto upon this great question has, on one side, proceeded upon the assumption, that there has been a considerable change in the principles and character of the church of Rome; a change so considerable as to justify the removal of all those securities, or, at least, of almost all those securities against it, with which the wisdom of a former age had surrounded the Protestant constitution of this country. I contend, on the desired that he might be met, not by old facts and old prejudices, but by new and contemporary evidence, and fair reasoning. Though I deny the right (in argument on a question involving the probabilities of human conduct in future) to expunge from our consideration all that is past, to deprive us of all the benefits which history might give us, and to limit us to the observations of our own ephemeral existence, yet I feel so confidently the strength of our position, even on the ground which our adversaries have chosen for us, that I am willing to meet them there, and with their own weapons. I will, therefore, pledge myself, in my endeavour to prove the unchanged character of the church of Rome, to use nothing but new and contemporary evidence, and, I trust, nothing like prejudice. The evidence which I shall offer shall be as accessible as that on the table of this House, and more authoritative; because, in great part, it shall be the evidence of the Papal See itself. I am willing, indeed, to admit, that, in many things, the church of Rome has changed since the Reforma contrary, that the church of Rome is not ❘tion: but, in none has she changed con merely unchanged, but unchangeable. I contend, that the evidence on which this change is, in the judgment of the hon. member for Armagh, sufficiently proved, is, in itself, and on other points, so little trust-worthy, as, at any rate, to justify no great experiment on the constitution. I contend, that this experiment, the object so long and so clamorously sought under the name of Catholic Emancipation, is of little benefit to the great mass of those, in whose name and behalf it is urged. I contend, that those, the very few, to whom it would be beneficial, it would still leave dissatisfied and discontented. I contend, that the claim so urged is not a right founded either in abstract natural justice, or in specific convention. I contend, lastly, that under these circumstances, it is wiser and safer, in the choice of many ways full of difficulties, to keep to that path, which, though not without its difficulties, is still the path by which the country has advanced to her present greatness, and the people to the largest aggregate of individual happiness ever yet combined. The hon, member for Armagh, and the right hon.gentleman, the Attorney-general for Ireland, have (very conveniently, I admit, for their views of the subject) desired us to give them nothing of that old almanack -history. The hon, member for Armagh nected with her influence on the present question. I am willing to admit, that the physical power of the church of Rome, over the bodies of men, is considerably less; but I contend, that she still exercises over the conscience, and over the intelligence of men, a despotism as complete, and as dangerous (so far as her power extends) as she ever did. If I were asked to measure the progress of public opinion, and the state of the human mind in any country, I should refer, not so much to her laws, not so much to her institutions, as to her literature-to that which represents man in every condition of his social and private life, which models his character, and is itself modelled by it. Now, by that test I am willing to try the church of Rome. I will tell you, not what her literature is, but what it is not. Her tyranny over literature, her proscription at this day of all the great masters of the human mind, can be paralleled only by the tyranny and the proscription which she exercised five centuries ago, over the minds and bodies alike. The volume which I hold in my hand, the "Index Librorum Prohibitorum, contains a list of the books which are at this time proscribed in the church of Rome, under the penalties of the Inquisition. It was printed at Rome, by authority, in 1819, and I bought it there, in the College, I think, De Propaganda, in 1821. The list | science. Sir, the church of Rome proscribed was framed at different times: the literature of every generation since the Reformation has added some of its treasures to it; but, when I quote the names of earlier greatness proscribed in it, let me not be supposed to violate the pledge with which I began; for I quote no charge against the sixteenth century, which cannot in the same words be applied to the nineteenth; none against a Pius 5th to which a Pius 7th did not actually and honestly expose himself. The first book in this great Catalogue of works which are taken from the faithful every where, and are given up to the Inquisition, is "Bacon de Augmentis Scientiarum ;"* " Locke on the Human Understanding;" and "Cudworth's Intellectual System," follow in the train. Let me add a minor fact connected with the papal condemnation of Bacon's work: the date of the publication of that work preceded the date of the decree against it about fifty years; so little had the church of Rome in that day risen to the level of the age, that fifty years had elapsed before the name and the work of Bacon appear to have reached the Vatican. It is true, that the best modern literature of the land of these great men is not as yet proscribed; but, may we not venture to believe, that fifty years hence, when some future Pius, shall have heard that, in the heretical country of England, there had existed about this time two such men as Dugald Stewart and William Paley, their names will be added to those of Bacon, Locke, and Cudworth; and their works also will be condemned, as fatal to the faith of man? Many other English works are proscribed. One only I will mention, "The Paradise Lost" of Milton. The reading of the work was interdicted, indeed, nearly a hundred years ago; but, the prohibition was renewed in 1819. Is not this enough to prove, that the character of the church of Rome is not so open to a beneficial change, as some of my honourable friends are willing to hope and believe it to be? I pass over large classes of books, the very possession of which is forbidden; but, I must notice the impartial prohibition of * Baconus (Franciscus) de Verulamio. De Dignitate et Augmentis Scientiarum ; donec corrigatur. Decret. 3 Apr. 1669. + Milton. Il Paradiso Perduto. Poema Inglese, tradotto in nostra lingua, da Paolo Rolli, Decr. 21 Januarii 1732. Copernicus;* but to make all things even, it has proscribed Des Cartes also. + Will the House believe it possible, that the celebrated sentence in 1634, against Galileo-a sentence immortalized by the execration of science in every country where the mind is free-should be renewed and republished in 1819? Yet, of this fact, I hold the proof in my hand, in the volume of the "Index" which I have already quoted. The work of Algarotti, on the Newtonian system, shares the same fate: so that every modification of science, in other words, every effort of free inquiry, every attempt to disengage the mind from the trammels of authority, is alike and universally consigned to the Inquisition. I venture to think, that a good library, in almost every class of literature, might be formed out of the books which the church of Rome in this "Index" prohibits. Am I not justified in saying, that the church of Rome remains unchanged, the unchangeable enemy to the progress of the human mind? Every other institution is advancing with sails set, and banners streaming, on the high, yet still rising, tide of improvement: the church of Rome alone remains fixed, and bound to the bottom of the stream by a chain which can neither be lengthened nor removed. The House will not be surprised, after this, to hear, that Grotius "De Jure Belli et Pacis" and Puffendorf, are equally and impartially given up to the Inquisition. But, will not the House be surprised to hear of the treatment which Fenelon has experienced? Alive, he was condemned and persecuted; to this day, one of his most devotional works, as I believe it to be, is placed in the same Index of Abominations from which I have made the preceding selections. Surelymyhon. and learned friend, the member for Plympton, in a speech on a former occasion, to which I listened with less delight than usual to any thing from him, because I could not agree in his conclusions, claimed too much for the church of Rome, when he described it (I * Copernicus, Nicolaus. De Revolutionibus Orbium Cælestium, Libri VI. nisi fuerint correcti juxta emendationem editam anno 1620. Decr. 15 Maii 1620. + Des Cartes Opera Philosophica; donec corrigantur. Decr. 20 Nov. 1663. † Galilei Galileo. Diologo sopra i due masimi Sisteme del Mondo Tolemaico, e Copernicano. Decret. 23 Augusti 1634. |