every allowance ought to be made. It was not to be forgotten what irritating language was expressed against them. Yet when the legislature had decided that the Catholic Association should be suppressed, with an immediate forbearance

a forbearance which was the characteristic of the Irish Roman Catholics, under all their sufferings they at once submitted to the decree of the legislature, and in so doing gave an additional proof of their loyalty and attachment to the Constitution.

His noble and gallant friend had in his speech commented upon the want of gratitude which the Irish Roman Catholics had manifested, subsequently to every act of legislative concession. He had heard such an imputation with surprise; and he was at a loss to discover on what facts such a charge rested. He defied his noble and gallant friend to cite an instance of such conduct. Nay, more; he would venture to assert, that legislative favours were uniformly received by the Catholic body with unqualified gratitude. He did not see at that moment in his place the lord Privy Seal, otherwise he should appeal to him to give a most conclusive answer to the imputation of his noble and gallant friend. The noble earl (Westmorland) was lord lieutenant of Ireland in 1793. And here he must be allowed to state, in answer to that imputation, the history and character of those concessions which were granted to the Catholics in the subsequent years. In 1792, the prayer of the Catholics was refused; but in the year after, when the country was engaged in a war with France-when dangers from without presented themselves in a threatening form, those concessions, refused the year before, were recommended to the Irish parliament in a speech from the Throne, and passed by a great majority. Such was the history of the concessions of that period; and again he would repeat that they were received with the unqualified gratitude of the Irish Catholics [hear, hear!]. But he begged the House to bear in mind that they were now called upon to act under peculiarly favourable circumstances, and he would consequently recommend on principles of mere policy, to extend those concessions at a period not of war, but of peace, when the country stood happily prominent in character and glory, in the enjoyment of political and maritime strength, and not to wait to do that which, a season of calamity would undoubtedly demand [hear, hear!].

The question now stood on different grounds from any other period. It presented itself in a different attitude; inasmuch as they had now before them a mass of information on which he would take upon himself to say, their lordships, and the people of England stood much in need; for on all subjects connected with Ireland the ignorance of all classes in this country was very remarkable. He had the honour originally, to move for the appointment of the committee. It was then refused, but subsequently agreed to, and no man would venture to deny that the greatest benefit had resulted from the investigation. Their lordships had now before them the unimpeachable testimony of numerous witnesses on their oaths, acquainted with the precise and local circumstances, stated fairly and honestly in the face of the world. When, therefore, the noble lord (Colchester) asserted that the whole of the declarations and efforts of the Roman Catholics was a mere pretence to assist them in obtaining the powerand property of the established church, he met that assertion by referring the noble lord to the undoubted testimony of respectable men of that persuasion, who on their oaths declared the contrary. It was not necessary for him to bear testimony to the characters of Mr. O' Connell and Dr. Doyle; but, most persuaded he was, that if the latter had the good fortune to have been bred in that pure faith of the Protestant church which their lordships professed, he would not, from his piety and learning, disgrace the right reverend bench, which he (lord Darnley) saw before him [hear, hear!].

The evidence of these two distinguished individuals had, however, been objected to, because it was stated to be at variance with speeches addressed to a popular assembly by the one, an opinion given in writing by the other. But admitting the fairness of this objection, and looking only to their evidence on oath which he could not doubt, he would pass by their testimony, and call their lordships attention to a passage in the evidence of a legal Catholic gentleman, examined before the committee he meant Mr. Blake, whose testimony could not, on any grounds, be called in question; who possessed the full confidence of the marquis of Wellesley; and who, in his evidence as to the effect of the disfranchisement of the Irish 40s. freeholders, declared, that it was his conviction that instead of weakening, it would strengthen

lord on the Woolsack from his office, a very large part of that population would be procured to give their signatures [hear, hear and a laugh). From Ireland, where the prejudices against the question might be supposed to prevail, and where the effects, if the measure was passed, would be most powerfully felt, no great number of anti-Catholic petitions had been presented. Thank God, a very different spirit was springing up in Ireland. The Protestants of that country felt justly, that things could not go on in their present state. It was with pleasure and pride that he saw a person connected with him by the nearest and dearest ties taking the lead on this occasion (Mr. Brownlow), and possessing great influence in Ireland, act upon that impression, giving up former prepossessions, and with such effect affording his support to the present bill [hear, hear!].

It was impossible that the question should remain as it now presented itself. There was not, he believed, a single individual who knew any thing of Ireland who could lay his hand upon his heart and declare that he believed it possible that things could continue there in their present state-what then will you do? Will you recede? and will you, as advised by a witness who has been examined by the committee re-enact some part of the penal code that has been relaxed? If not, you must go on. But by acceding to the present demand of policy and justice the empire would acquire a tower of strength in the undivided affections of the people of Ireland. The power of England was now great; her position in the world most imposing; her character, undoubtedly, most high. That was the time, above all others, for conciliating Ireland. Was it not more consonant with that power and character to rule that country by the affections of the people than by an army of 25,000 men? Such a force would, no doubt, preserve Ireland at present. But at a period when peace had been preserved for a considerable time, would it not be wise to prepare for future contention by placing a just reliance in the warm hearts and strong arms of the Irish people? If their lordships were disposed to trifle with those feelings at the present moment, a time would probably arrive, when they would be unable to keep that country as an integral, at least as an useful member of the empire. Circumstances at present recommended most strongly the adoption

of that just and salutary measure. Circumstances had recently occurred to which he would not now particularly allude, which rendered the immediate adoption of the measure most desirable, and others might unhappily arise when those favourable recommendations might change their character, and difficulties interpose. He, therefore, sincerely hoped, that their lordships would accomplish at present that great consummation which the Commons of the United Kingdom solicited at their bar.

The Earl of Long ford observed, that living constantly among a Roman Catholic population, regarding them highly as individuals, and respecting them as a body collectively, it would be readily imagined that he was most anxious to meet the views of the Roman Catholics of Ireland with as much favour as any man. But after very mature consideration, he could not bring himself to think that this bill would answer the sanguine expectations of those by whom it had been introduced into parliament, or that it was a measure that could be put into execution without manifest danger to the constitution. In giving his most decided opposition to this measure, he begged at the same time distinctly to state, that he was actuated by no spirit of hostility to the Roman Catholics. But, while he repeated that he held them in very high regard, he must take leave to say, that he could not at all see why they were to be admitted to a participation with Protestants of certain civil rights and political power in a free Protestant country. It had been rather imputed to those who, like himself, were unfriendly to such admission, that they wished to visit with penal consequences their peculiar doctrines: but he desired to observe, that they did not in any degree wish to interfere with the religious opinions, nor did they at all presume to measure the speculative tenets, or to regulate the doctrines of the Roman Catholics; but they were determined that the Roman Catholics should not interfere with theirs. The reason of their refusal of such admission was founded upon the political consequences that would follow upon their assent-political consequences that always had ensued, and that in his conscience he believed always would ensue, upon conceding those privileges to Roman Catholics which were now claimed by them. Those consequences led to the perpetual interference of the papal autual affairs alone, but actually in the general transactions and ordinary business of life. It had been deposed, indeed, by witnesses examined before their lordships, and by others, that that interference was strictly confined to spiritual matters and doctrine; but, how and by whom was the line to be drawn that was to separatein the judgment of a Roman Catholic for example-spiritual from temporal affairs? How could it be supposed that he who exercised an undoubted and unresisted influence in the one would not exert it in the other? Or that the power which guided a man's conduct in regard to spiritual things would abstain from directing it in respect to temporal ones? He was of opinion that the Roman Catholic priesthood were able to lead the people with great facility; and their own constitution was well calculated ever to respect the supremacy of Rome. The commands of the superior to the inferior admitted of no dispute; while the principle of subjection in the inferior was as clearly defined as the right of the superior to his obedience. If they were to be emancipated, therefore, from the acknowledgment of that control recognized by our constitution, while they continued subject to the papal orders transmitted through their own clergy, to admit to a participation of civil and political privileges those who still refused so to acknowledge a control which was submitted to by our own church, would be to put the Roman Catholic clergy on a higher footing than our own; and more especially when, if he was rightly informed, that control had been submitted to in other countries and cases. Under these circumstances, he could not think that the preamble of this bill was fairly worded: it contained a part of the truth, but not the whole truth. It was entitled "A bill for the removal

of

the disqualifications under which his majesty's Roman Catholic subjects now labour- Whereas the Protestant succession to the imperial crown of this united kingdom and its dependencies, is, by the act for the further limitation of the crown, and the better securing the liberties of the subject, established permanently and inviolably." But, there should have been added something to this effect:"An act to admit and invest certain dignitaries and others of the Roman Catholic persuasion to and with political and civil privileges, which all experience had withVOL. XIII.

others of the same station, except on submission to a certain control; from all obedience to which, such Roman Catholics are hereby exempted." In short, to grant them those privileges while they continued to deny our control, would be virtually, to put them in a better situation than the members of our own church. He also excepted to the bill, on account of the power which the Catholic priesthood would exercise and did exercise over their flocks, to an extent greatly beyond direction in matters affecting their spiritual welfare. He knew, indeed, that among the Catholic clergy there were many honourable exceptions to this description of them. He had nothing to oppose to the praises which had been bestowed upon them by noble lords who had spoken before him. But they were not to eulogise individuals: their business was legislation. He would ask, if they were to admit the Roman Catholic body to the highest places in the constitution, what was to guarantee the Protestant establishment? By the law none were admissible to offices of political trust, but those whose allegiance was perfected. Of all the dissenters from the establishment, he knew of none whose allegiance was of necessity imperfect, except the Roman Catholics. Standing in the peculiar relation to us which they did, in what light must they regard us? What must be the feeling of a really conscientious Roman Catholic (for it was useless to take notice of any other) towards the national church establishment? They were to consider in this question what had been done by the Protestants. Were not these dissenters from their faith usurpers of the authority of their creed, despoilers of the property of their church? In what other light could they look upon us? We were voluntary seceders from them, as the other dissenters were from the national establishment. They did not willingly nor without considerable struggles separate from our corps. There was nothing in principle, in Christian-like feeling, in policy or expediency, which required them to make those concessions, or forbad their refusal of them. A noble lord who had preceded him, had said, it was time for them to divest themselves of their prejudices; but surely that noble lord must feel that on questions of this kind, upon which men had been accustomed to hear particular opinions stated 2 Y

sible they should be altogether free from prejudice and bias. He was far indeed from speaking of those men who entertained those prejudices with a feeling of censure; they were frequently the bond of parental, filial, and conjugal connections, and every other tie that bound man to man in relationship and friendship; and those feelings reflected the highest honour on men in private life, and rendered them the most amiable and estimable men in society. But, let it be remembered, that those prejudices were not all on one side. Much might be said about the eradicating of prejudices; but he thought it would be a dangerous experiment. You might extinguish a particular religion, but were you sure you could extirpate prejudice? ? As to what were called the just rights of the Catholics, he could not understand it; for he denied that the interests of the many should ever be sacrificed to the few. Expediency was sometimes talked of as a ground for conceding this measure; but that word had latterly been supplanted by another -necessity, which had been defined to be nothing short of a general threatening. This appeared to him to be unfounded in fact. If he thought it had the least foundation, it would be with him an additional reason for resisting any thing like concession; but, as he had no such impression, he should be sorry to attribute such an opinion to the Catholics. But, when this necessity was talked of, it reminded one of the tone adopted by the old Irish chieftains, a form of expression less lengthy and more expressive certainly than we heard now: "you owe me a tribute, and if you don't"- [a laugh]. But, setting those considerations aside, the question for them was, since the restrictions were imposed, had the country advanced or gone back? Was it not at a pitch of prosperity, wealth, and glory, which were never equalled in ancient or modern history? Let them consider the power, capabilities, and resources, which had developed themselves in this little contracted spot of the earth's surface-not the fruits of extraordinary individual talents; but the slow and gradual growth of ages, during which the oppressed Catholics, as they were called, had enjoyed, in common with their Protestant brethren, the fruits of those councils from which, for their own advantage as well as ours, they had been excluded. With this fact

of the country under a Protestant establishment and constitution, he was very averse to any thing like innovation; and it required the strongest force of reasoning to convince him that a change in any degree was desirable. Until some more striking facts or arguments were brought forward, he would stand by that system under which all our greatness and prosperity had been made. Indeed, d. he doubted whether any circumstances could change his opinion; but he was unwilling to give such a pledge, particularly when they saw the strange things that were passing around them every day; but he could not anticipate any change of circumstances which would justify the constitution of a free state in admitting the Catholics to the participation of political power. When he heard the recommendations of noble peers to make an innovation in the constitution, he was reminded of what he once saw upon a tombstone, "I was well; I would be betterand here I am." He would say, that there was no principle which ought to be more adhered to than the union of church and state. They had gone on strengthening and supporting each other; but the measure proposed was calculated to produce a schism in them. He believed that those who recommended this measure were sincere in their opinions of its necessity; and without attributing any want of sincerity to them, he must say, that he could not contemplate it in the same light that they did. An argument had been put forth that evening, namely, that the measure had come recommended to them by the decision of the House of Commons. He was far from saying that this was not a strong recommendation; but amongst the valuable privileges of the House of Peers, none was more important on the one hand, than to assist in the accomplishment of any measure which would be beneficial to the country, and on the other, when a measure was not beneficial, to arrest it in its progress. He thought it would become the House manfully to declare that this bill ought not to pass, and that they would therefore reject it. But, in support of the bill in the other House, they had a mere triffing hesitating majority-not the fair decision of that great council of the nation, nor the unequivocal declaration of their opinion. And would their lordships be jus