prized me, and which the Noble Lord seemed to countenance) That, as its requests did not affect their order, they did not choose to sign it; that it did not go far enough, and therefore did not deserve their application. To neither of these observations shall I give any weight; but I will give one more fitting the conduct and character of that reverend body of the superior clergy, of whom, from every thing I experienced, I shall always speak with respect. The reason that I conceive why the priests did not sign the Petition is, that they disapproved of the season; that they, who knew the state and temper of their own people, the state and temper of the Protestants, knew that the time was unfitting for the discussion; that neither party had forgiven the sufferings and injuries of the late rebellion; and that to revive the consideration of this question, would only be to revive the horrors of the rebellion. They therefore, in which I concur with them, wished to postpone the consideration of their situation to a more favourable moment; and when, as was ably observed, so very few persons have signed this Petition from several parts of Ireland, it may be argued that a large portion of the Catholics concur in this opinion with the priesthood.

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Having looked at this question as it related to Ireland, let us extend our view to its general effect. What is the state of England, of Scotland? Perfectly quiet; no religious jealousy; every man worshipping the Deity according to the form he approves. Will the Noble Lord ensure the continuance of such a state if this motion is complied with? And here an observation should be made : -The Irish Parliaments, taunted as they have been as bigots and oppressors, in 1793 gave considerable privileges to the Catholics. Have the English done so to their Catholics, whose loyalty and good conduct has been unimpeached, and against whom suspicion never broached a whisper in their disfavour? The argument of the dangers attending the measures in Ireland not applying in England, why did not the Noble

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Lords propose relaxations to the same extent? Because the state and temper of the country would not bear the proposition. What is the case of Scotland? Why even the laws of 1791 were not extended to that country. What is to be argued from this? That those who had the management of Scotland, knew the state and temiper of that country would not bear the discussion; that it would be injurious to the Catholics, injurious to the Protestants. May I then ask, What has happened to induce you to throw this measure wild upon the country? Does any man wish to renew the horrors of the year 1780? Is any man sure that the crymay not be raised that the Church is in danger? and may there not be some ground for this alarm?

It was very ably shewn, and I shall not again go over the ground, that this question might throw the one hundred Irish Members and the whole power of Ireland into the hand of the Catholics. Calculate what the Dissenters of this country are; add to these those of no religion, those willing to sacrifice the establishment to free themselves from tithes and taxes; consider the tempting state of the possessions of the Church as a source of taxation; contemplate the effects of an union of these bodies acting systematically, forming subscriptions; recollect that parties may be in this country who would go all lengths to attain and maintain power; and nobody can calmly say very serious attacks might not be made on the establishment of the Church. We are told this is not a time to exclude men from the service of the state for religious opinions. In the first place, In Ireland the Catholics are not generally excluded; and, secondly, It is not an account of religious opinions, but because they will not acknowledge the supremacy of the King, and come, in a general way of considering the subject, within the provisions of the 24th of Henry the Eighth. We 'are likewise told, that the fears of the Pope and Pretender are gone by; of the latter certainly, except cept by arguments, there seem no attempts to set up his title. But the Pope has no power. It is not the power of the Pope, but the power of those over whom the Pope has influence, that is to be considered; and if that unfortunate person, having disgraced his reverend hand by anointing a usurper, is a prisoner in his capital, and under his authority has a communication with Ireland, and spiritual mixed with civil authority, appointing the Hierarchy of that country, who can deny that this is a solecism in politics, and cannot be contemplated without apprehension ?

But what I most disapprove is, the manner in which this question is brought forward. Whoever proposes a change of so important a nature as this is, whoever proposes to alter laws, ought to explain the whole plan and the whole project.

It was said that, in the consideration of restrictive laws, all that excluded persons from equal power, the onus lay upon those to shew cause who wished for their continuance. Is it so? I know not how the people of England will like to hear that they are to shew cause for the protection of the corporations and their franchises against universal suffrage, of freeholders against copyholders; but for one, I am ready to take the onus. "What have you gained by the war?" was frequently asked: What was the Noble Lord's answer?" That I have survived the shock under which other nations have sunk," quod spèrò tuum est, 1 listened with considerable attention to hear what was to be proposed. The first Noble Lord (GRENVILLE) was all general, and seemed to profess only a compliance with the Petition in aid of this favoured sect, forgetting all others upon equal claims, though his arguinent went to the full extent to them; but no guard, no declaration of what was to be put in the place. I attended with great anxiety to the next Noble Lord in the blue ribbon (SPENCER) fully convinced by his mature judgment and discretion, that he had some distinct plan to produce, which, whilst it gave liberty in one instance, would set up some substitute and guard on the other. Not a word!

As to the third Noble Lord (HOLLAND) from the extent of his arguments, I heard at least no. thing in favour of any religious establishment. We ought to see the whole plan and the whole project, that we may be sure, when we come into this Committee, any two of the proposers may agree upon what they would wish to have done. I shall be glad to see this new work of Vauban, and to know if I cannot proceed against it, by sap or storm, with more prospect of success than against the ancient castle, which has been fortified at every point where danger has threatened.

We have been told that this proposal is to strengthen the Church Establishment, to tranquillize Ireland, and secure the settlement of the Union; but I must not look at the professions of the proposer, but at the tendency of the project; and as I am convinced that its discussion at this improper and unfitting period will, instead of strengthening, shake the establishment of the Church; instead of tranquillizing, will convulse Ireland, and instead of cementing the Union, will risk the separation,-I must beg the Noble Lords not at such a moment to hazard the horrors and the miseries of religious contests.

The Earl of MOIRA expressed a wish that the question should be relieved from a great deal of extraneous matter with which it had been encumbered, and that it should be brought to the test of that plain good sense on which he conceived it to rest. He thought the complexion of the present times demanded that every exertion should be made to procure an unanimity of heart and mind in the cause of the country. It was very true, that to give the Catholics the privilege of admission to the few offices from which they were excluded, would be giving them little; but the gift would shew a disposition to con ciliate ciliate and to win their affections; which would be in that point of view important. He was surprized to have heard it said, that the Petition tended to throw the torch of discord into the country: on the contrary, he was of opinion that the object of it, if properly attended to, would tend to establish that harmony which was most essential to the country at the present moment. At the same time that he made these observations, he wished to speak with the utmost respect of the Established Church; but which he did not think would be endangered or injured by granting the Catholic claims. He wished, therefore, that the Petition should be referred to a Committee, for the purpose of considering whether any danger could really arise from conceding those claims; and if it should be deemed not prudent to grant the whole, whether any part of those claims might be safely admitted; as he wished it to be understood, that in the Committee he should certainly be desirous of weighing well each object which the Catholics had in view, and investigating in what manner it would operate with respect to the Church Establishment, before he gave his consent to the admission of the claim which it involved.

Earl DARNLEY.-" I am ready to confess my disposition to assent to the opinion of some Noble Lords on the other side of the House as to the time in which this question is agitated. Had I been consulted by the Catholics of Ireland, I certainly should have recommended to them to abstain from pressing their claims at a period which is generally known to be peculiarly unfavourable, for many reasons; into some of which I do not feel myself at all called upon to enter, but which are very generally known. I certainly think the present disposition of the country in general adverse to the proposition, however I may be convinced that it is founded in reason and justice, and must therefore, sooner or later, ultimately prevail. Since, however, the question is come to be agitated in Parliament, your Lordships will agree

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