Established Church. Now the Roman Catholic Hierarchy deny and resist the authority of the Established Church; they refuse to acknowledge the King as head of the Church; they are nominated to their authority by the Pope, and thus they presume to supersede the authority of the Bishops, legally established in all their ecclesiastical functions, although they can have no legal right to such authority; and therefore it was that I did assert, on a former day, it was impossible while that Hierarchy was allowed to exist, for any peace to be maintained in the country; for I contended, that having the rank in ecclesiastical superiority, they would never be content until they obtained the revenues, and all the other powers and privileges attached to it in the Established Church. The Noble Lord, notwithstanding his warmth, shall not deter me from stating that which I know to be fact. The Noble Lord has certainly mistated me, when he says I asserted that no Protestant could be secure in any part of Ireland but in a garrison town. I said, There are many parts of Ireland where a Protestant daylabourer cannot exist; but I did not say any thing of garrison towns. Now the fact I assert, is occasioned by the apprehensions and fears which Protestants in the humbler classes of life entertain of being maimed or otherwise injured by the peasantry of the country who are all Catholics; and to such a degree do those apprehensions operate even upon my own servants, being Protestants, that they dare not reside in the interior of the country."

The Earl of ORMOND.-" My Lords, I trust I shall not be contradicted by any man who really knows any thing of Ireland, when I say the Noble and Learned Lord has stated that which is not a fact, at least in the opinion of any man but himself; and therefore I cannot sit silent and hear the country to which I have the honour to belong, so foully traduced, without rising in my place, to contradict such unfounded aspersions upon the national cha

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racter of Ireland. The Noble Lord has asserted, that Protestant servants dare not live in the same families with Catholic servants; and that the Catholic servants, from their hatred to those of the Protestant religion, combine against them. My Lords, I know not what may be the state of the Noble Lords' household, I never was in his house, I never wish it, and I never shall be in it; but, my Lords, I do know that in my own house, in the houses of all the Protestant gentlemen around it, intermixed and surrounded by Catholics, and in one of the most Catholic counties in Ireland (Kilkenny) Catholic and Protestant servants live together like brothers. The Noble Lord has stated, that in Dublin a Protestant servant cannot get employment in a Protestant family, on account of the combination formed against him by Catholic servants. In all my intercourse in Dublin, during a very long residence there, much longer indeed than that of the Noble Lord, I never once heard any such thing. The only complaint I ever recollect to have heard on this point was, that Protestant servants enough could not be had to supply Protestant families who had a predilection for such servants that class of the people in Ireland; being by much the greater part Catholic. From the tenor of the speech spoken by that Noble and Learned Lord on a former night, and the weight with which every statement respecting the country where he presides in a situation so eminent, must fall under the sanction of his grave authority, I own. I did expect this motion would have met, this night, the most virulent opposition from the Right Reverend Bench opposite to me. But, unlike the Noble Lord, nothing has fallen from that quarter but the most calm, decorous, and moderate arguments so truly characteristic of the tolerant spirit and charitable principles of that Established Religion over which they so worthily preside. But from the Noble Lord, instead of a most legal, liberal, enlightened lightened, and argumentative speech, becoming the gravity of his character, what have we heard? A collection of old women's stories, which I do verily believe not even the most prejudiced Protestant in Ireland this day would accredit. I have been in Ireland the greater part of my life.

I have repeatedly travelled through, and had intercourse with Protestant gentlemen from every quarter of it, and never, in the course of my life, did I hear such statements as those made by the Noble Lord; and not one of which will, I am sure, be avouched by any independent man in this House. I hope when the Noble and Learned Lord returns to that Bench, on which he presides over the public justice of Ireland, he will divest himself of that violent antipathy towards one sect of the people, and that obvious partiality for another, which he has so conspicuously evinced in this House. My Lords, I most cheerfully support the motion before you, convinced as I am of its sound policy, its wisdom, and its justice."

Lord BORRINGDON.-" My Lords, when a measure somewhat similar to that now proposed, was offered for adoption in this House on a former occasion, the Noble Baron who has brought forward this motion, did me the honour of very warmly supporting my motion on that occasion for the previous question. He thought then as I did, that other times more proper for the discussion of such a measure might arrive, and when it could be granted without material objection. And if this was at that time a sufficient reason with him for postponing the measure, he ought certainly to allow others, on this occasion, to hold the like opinion, and to think that other times may come, and, perhaps, be not very remote, when the grant of such a measure would be much less objectionable than the present moment. It is my wish, my Lords, to expand the principles of toleration, as far as any man, with security to the State; and I think the Church no more in danger from

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from the measure now proposed, than from any other Bill in favour of Catholic relaxations that has passed this House. There are, however, strong objections in the minds of many against this measure, to which certainly much of differential consideration is due; and, until those objections are satisfied, I own I think it would not be wise or politic to go the lengths which the Petition on your table proposes. My Lords, it has been strongly stated by a Noble and Learned Lord, that a Catholic Hierarchy exists in Ireland, contrary to law; and that they hold their ecclesiastical powers under a foreign authority. But why do they call upon us to surrender our doubts, our cautions, and our jealousies, if they are not prepared to ineet us by some concessions on their parts, and remove those obstacles which principally stand in the way of their objects. When they call upon us to make further concessions, it seems, they too have something to concede; and how can they expect we shall concede every thing, unless they too will agree to give up those points on which our objections and apprehensions chiefly rest. I must say, that the persons who have urged forward this business, have, in many instances, exceedingly misconducted themselves, not only in pushing it onward at a time when they were aware they could have no hope of success, but in not endeavouring to consult the objections of those who were avowedly opposed to their purpose, in their present view of the subject, and how far those objections could be removed, before the question came to a public discussion. If the Catholics refuse to acknowledge the authority of the Hierarchy by law established, how can they expect we shall recognize that of an Hierarchy established within the realm by foreign authority, and directly contrary to law? Perhaps, in some future negociation, they would consent to allow that the King should nominate their bishops, properly recommended by their own parochial clergy. If they would consent to this, as it would be, in some sort, a compliance pliance with that principle of our Constitution which acknowledges the King to be head of the Church, I have little doubt that it would remove so much anxiety on this ground from the minds of those who now oppose the measure, as very much to smooth the way for ultimate success to their Petition. I have read a book written by a Roman Catholic, which says, "The

machinery employed is not very material if the object is obtained; and as to the time, it will be better "left to the wisdom of the legislature than urge it "forward against the sentiments of the country when "there is no hope of success." My Lords, if such sentiments pervade the minds of Irishmen and Catholics, they cannot but meet the approbation of Englishmen ahd Protestants. And I trust the time is not far distant when such a sentiment will have its weight with the general mind; at present, however, the bias of general opinion is against this measure, and that consideration must rule the vote I mean this night to give. But, if the Catholics were prepared to make the concession to which I have alluded, much, I am confident, would be cheerfully ceded of that which I think must be now withheld; for the defect is on their side. And I am convinced, that, on any future opportunity when this subject may again be brought forward for discussion, the determination of the Catholics upon this most important point, will ultimately decide the public mind, for or against their wishes. For the present, therefore, I shall vote against the Committee; and I am glad that, in the sentiments I have expressed, I have been preceded by three out of the four of his Majesty's Ministers in this House. I do think that the Catholics themselves, who have urged forward this measure, feel they had no rational hope of carrying it now. They know they have friends on both sides of this House, and that those who divide this night with the Noble Baron who brought forward this motion, will not be the whole strength of the support in their favour at a proper opportunity, and when they shall