those tests indispensibly required by law from all his Majesty's Protestant subjects. The Petition, my Lords, in no degree professes to have any concern, interest, or view of amelioration towards the great mass of the Irish Catholics: it is only the claim of a few individuals for political power, which, in my view of the subject, cannot be constitutionally granted; and which, even if it were granted, could not, according to the arguments of Noble Lords who have so zealously advocated this Petition, confer upon the claimants any very material advantage. But, I would ask, if this Petition were granted, where is the security that toleration to our Protestant brethren in Ireland would long continue? My Lords, if amelioration to the state of the Catholics of Ireland be the real object, and I agree that it is a most desirable one, a much better expedient for that purpose would be to extend the benefits of education to the lower orders, and to promote amongst them the advantages of civilization, useful industry, and social intercourse, with their peaceable and well demeaned fellow-subjects; and to those objects it is extremely desirable that the attention of the Legislature should be directed, as the modes of promoting harmony, contentment, and social order in that country, rather than any measure for gratifying the ambitious views or the anxiety for power amongst a few wealthy individuals of that sect. To such a measure, my Lords, I feel that decided resistance is essential to the preservation of Church and State, and more particularly in Ireland. I therefore hope that a British Parliament will never make a surrender which would in fact be to give up the security of that Constitution, which, in my conscience, I believe to be the best constituted in the world.

Lord REDESDALE. -" My Lords, the candour and moderation with which the Learned Prelate who just sat down has discussed the subject, reflects the highest honour upon his character,

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and the venerable station he fills, and I fully coincide with him in every word he has said. It becomes necessary, however, that I should trespass a little upon your Lordships' attention, in expressing the opinions I hold on this subject. The question now before your Lordships is, whether you will go into a Committee, to consider the propriety of granting the prayer of the Petition. The Noble Baron who introduced the motion, has said, it is for the purpose of considering the claims of the Catholics; but, I apprehend, if the Noble Baron had stated the fact more explicitly, he would have told your Lordships, it was to grant the Catholics the whole of their claims: for he has declared that nothing short of that would gratify the claimants, while the Petitioners themselves declare that nothing short of an equal participation of rights and power on equal terms with their Protestant fellow-subjects, in Church and State, would satisfy them; for if you grant them what they ask, they will have it in both. But, my Lords, if such a demand were to be complied with, I am convinced the Constitution in Church and State could not long survive; for what do they in reality ask, but to be relieved from all tests by which every other class of his Majesty's subjects are bound. This is plainly insinuated in the Petition on your table, and is the language publicly held by the members of that body in Ireland. If your Lordships will have the goodness to recollect for a moment what is the situation of the Irish Catholics, you will find it totally different from that of Catholics in any other Protestant State of Europe. They enjoy as free an exercise of their religion, as full a protection. to their liberties and properties, as complete a latitude in their education and civil rights as any part of his Majesty's subjects; and, in fact, their only impediment to any remaining privilege or eligibility that can be granted to them, consistently with any security to the State, is that test by which all other branches of his Majesty's Protestant subjects are

bound,

bound, and which they refuse, because they ac knowledge that Supremacy, which belongs only to his Majesty, to' exist in a foreign power. They have been loosed from almost every restriction it had been found necessary to impose on them since the Revolution, and all they now want is the power of the State, the possession of the Judicial Benches, and that the revenues of the Church should be transferred to their Bishops, as the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland. The whole tenor of their conduct since the Revolution evinces these to be their objects. If the claims of this Petition, then, were granted, something further must be also done, and the Legislature must repeal the fifth article of the Union Compact, by which it was settled, that the Established Church of Ireland and England were to be one and the same, and make the Roman Catholic Religion the Established Church of that country. For, to accede to the demands of this Petition, would, in fact, be to take from the Established Hierarchy of Ireland their revenues, and surrender them to the Catholic Bishops. This is the true object of those Bishops, and they will never be satisfied without it. The Protestant religion of the country must be subverted, and that of the Catholic set up in its place. Nor would the Catholic Hierarchy stop here; they will go much further, nor cease till they shall have effected a separation of Ireland from England; and this I know to be a favourite object with many of those men in that country, and such I know to be the prevailing apprehension amongst the most intelligent Protestants in Ireland. Upon this ground, therefore, my Lords, I most earnestly deprecate the proposed measure.

"Your Lordships have been referred by a Noble Lord to the case of Scotland, and the establishment of Presbyterianism by law in that country. It certainly was, my Lords, by solemn compact at the Union with that kingdom, and under it the laws L 2

the case.

religion to cope with it for superiority. But if the same were to take place in another country respecting the Catholic Religion, as this Petition in effect proposes, many of your Lordships would not now be here. It was, indeed, apprehended at first, that the establishment of Presbyterianism in Scotland would have effected the Protestant Establisment in this country. This, however, was not found to be But a very different argument must be applied to Ireland; for while in Scotland the number of Catholics, compared with those of the Established Church, are in comparison extremely few, in Ireland the number is three times as great as that of the Protestants, and consequently so great a superiority in numbers must speedily have the superiority in power, if this Petition were granted. Beside, my Lords, by the Test Act, every man of the Scotch religion, who accepts of power or place in England, is obliged to take the sacrament according to the rites of the Established Church here; and, therefore, all those Scotch placemen to whom the Noble Lord has alluded, as holding place in this country, were literally members of the Church of England, and took all those tests which the Roman Catholics refuse, while they require to be admitted to all the offices of the State, free from any test, and put on equal footing with Protestants, who take all. I ask, my Lords, whether such a distinction in favour of Catholics would be consistent with common justice or common policy, or to require of one class of subjects a test of qualification, which anather class, claiming equal privileges, refuse to subscribe? I ask, whether such a proceeding would be in any degree consistent with the policy which governed our ancestors, any more than with our present security. Another point material for your Lordships' consideration is, that the Catholic clergy and laity of Ireland are to be considered in quite distinct points of view. The clergy are a great and compact body, who are in all respects the rivals

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of the established Clergy of the land, whom they avowedly consider as usurpers (No! No! No! No! from the Opposition Benches) I say Yes! Yes! and I assert that the most Reverend Prelate now on that Bench (Archbishop of Armagh) is styled by them to this day Doctor Stuart; and it is notorious that the Irish Catholic Clergy will not allow any Protestant Bishop to be the lawful successor of the Catholic Bishop of Armagh, or any of the ancient Bishops of the country. They assume amongst them all the clerical dignities and titles of the established Clergy, even in the Catholic Petition to the House of Commons of Ireland, they assumed those titles in open defiance, and gross insult to the laws of the country; and there was but one man in that assembly who had the spirit to notice shis gross and insulting violation of law. They assume all the powers of the Established Church, and they enforce, by the most coercive means, obedience to their mandates, namely, by excommunication: and I have known an instance, where a worthy and humane clergyman of the Established Church, was obliged to send food from his own table, to feed a man under a sentence of this kind, who was deserted and shunned by all his acquaintance, and whom none dared even to converse with, through the terror of their clergy. Another instance of their vengeance against a poor man, reached my knowledge; he was excommunicated for having the banns of his marriage published in a Protestant Church, and the marriage ceremony performed, according to law, by a Protestant clergyman. The persons named were summoned to appear before the Catholic Vicar-general of the diocese. The Protestant clergyman consulting the peace of the parish, and, perhaps, his own safety, advised the parties to submit, and make any amends in their power;-but, no! the Catholic vicar of the diocese was inexorable to all apologies. But this was not all; for such as should hold any communication with them were to be ex

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